Rules of Engagement

[dontknowwho]

So the internets is abuzz with this video, that I won't post from 2007 showing two apache gunships obliterating what they thought was insurgents.

This article sums it all up nicely:

WikiLeaks Iraq Video Shows U.S. Troops Killing Civilians - TIME

[^UG^ Shaman]

Shit happens in war. Not nearly as bad as the video of the insurgents cutting off the heads of US civilian construction workers trying to help them rebuild their own fucking country.

[Sweak2000]

People see what they want to see, it is a problem of perception.
Perhaps, we should take a hard look at the way we train our forces. Is the training we provide to our forces realistic enough, and appropriate for the mission we them send to do?
Is this just a freak accident? or should we adapt our training methods to overcome this problem?
Having the flexibility to improvise is great, it just has it's limitations.

[★☆ neck535]

i was waiting for someone to post this.... I will post at length later...

In short, there is no problem @ sweak. That is and was a valid target at the time, given the situation and circumstance. As well, wikileaks is only posting half the story, messes up several of the Subtitles for the radio traffic and does not point out the weapons among the group, and neglects to mention most of the official report AND reuters report. They posted this to bash the Army and paint it as a civilian slaughter..... When in fact it is not.

[wooch]

I watched it last night myself... didnt want too post it here because I could see the potential flame war.

I watched it twice actually.

1) There was a fire fight near by a bit before this happened.
2) The insurgents had weapons
3) A War Corespondent knows full well that when you are interviewing the enemy, you are a potential target as well.
4) The dip shit parent of the kids shouldn't have even tried to help in the situation. He had kids with him... that is a Darwin Award winner right there.
5) The pilot and his crew attempted to find out if there were any friendlies in the area at the time. The report came back as a negative. I think it would be safe to assume that they had no idea the reporters were even near there.

Things like this happen, end of story.
As far as a cover up is concerned, in MHO there wasnt one.
They had filed a FOIA.. just needed to wait for it.

[^UG^ Shaman]

Originally Posted by Sweak2000 Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register to forum by clicking here to see images.

People see what they want to see, it is a problem of perception.
Perhaps, we should take a hard look at the way we train our forces. Is the training we provide to our forces realistic enough, and appropriate for the mission we them send to do?

Are you retarded? Please, you talk and talk and talk about shit that in reality you don't have a fucking clue about. You have opinions based on mounds of 3 legged goat shit. When you type something that sounds half way intelligent it's undoubtedly paraphrased from something you had read no more than five minutes earlier. Go hang out in the Joke forum or something. I can't believe you feel intelligent and informed enough to make some of the statements you make. I've got friends and ghosts of friends that would make your life a living hell if they ever heard this shit from you mouth in person. Fuck off.

[Kicker]

@ Shaman - He's all book learned (in Ma) and young. if and when he gets life experience I hope he has a copy of what he's typed to go back to and look at so he will slap himself.
@ Sweek - You really should take a look @ the way we train our forces, give up 4 yrs (or more) of you life and do an in-depth study (ie: Join the Army/Marines). It will make a man out of you (they'll even pay for the operation)

[Sweak2000]

Originally Posted by Shaman Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register to forum by clicking here to see images.

Are you retarded? Please, you talk and talk and talk about shit that in reality you don't have a fucking clue about. You have opinions based on mounds of 3 legged goat shit. When you type something that sounds half way intelligent it's undoubtedly paraphrased from something you had read no more than five minutes earlier. Go hang out in the Joke forum or something. I can't believe you feel intelligent and informed enough to make some of the statements you make. I've got friends and ghosts of friends that would make your life a living hell if they ever heard this shit from you mouth in person. Fuck off.

Read what I wrote FULLY.
Saying "People see what they want to see, it is a problem of perception," and "Having the flexibility to improvise is great, it just has it's limitations," are the only 2 statements I made.
Everything else was a question. If you wish to disagree with either of the two statements, that is fine.

The problem you are having is you are perceiving my questions as statements.

[wooch]

flame on

[★☆ neck535]

Im not set off, i will intelligibly answer the question once i get to a real PC and not on my cell.

The questions u ask are valid from ur perspective.

[^UG^ Casper]

If i would believe in everything i read or see in News i would have quit my job loong time ago or i would be killed or fired from my work.

Every story got 2 sides so its good to ear both before make an assumption.

Its also good to talk to guys with more experience and /or with guys in this situations.

News tend to be told the most dramatic, exploited, entertainment spectacular way so they get the more attention possible. Unfortunatly they can be used or manipulated by those who makes them or by someone who just wants to make a point.

News on TV or any Media shouldnt be eard has being totally true but just has a perpective of those who tells them.

[^UG^ TheWildDog]

anyway you're never enough prepared to be on the field. Its after you come back, sometimes more than 1x than you're becoming prepared. And as my grand pa said (2 wars and full decorated by the army), If you can avoid to be well prepared, avoid...

I will not insist on the details to why he said me that, I think you can well understand yourself ...

[^UG^_Magnet]

That's why the Red Cross wears that big RED X on all their vehicles and clothing, to identify themselves in a hostile environment. Same with the U.N. "peacekeepers". Hard to miss that big blue helmet when you're shooting at them.

The camera man and reporter were not following the girls-gone-wild crew. They were in a battle field. If they didn't know the risks and how to alleviate them as much they could then oops. Even with every precaution nothing is guaranteed. Ask Pat Tillman.

The good samaritan dad? I don't know about you but if I was living in Iraq or Afghanistan and came upon a firefight or the after affects with my kids I think I'd keep right on driving thank you very much.

[^UG^ Shaman]

Originally Posted by Sweak2000 Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register to forum by clicking here to see images.

Perhaps, we should take a hard look at the way we train our forces.

That is not a question. And besides you and I both know your intent. We both know what side of the field you play on. You've copied and pasted and paraphrased enough in these forums that I can grasp a pretty good reading of your personality, you political views, even your sexual preference. It'll be our little secret but you and I both know you would make sweet love to Cindy Sheehan despite those preferences.

Back on subject. The only people that ask those questions are the pot stirrers who went the whole day without a bright idea or a helpful suggestion to offer anyone so this is their way at "getting back" at those serving a FAR greater purpose in life. Ya, I'm good.

[Sweak2000]

You must be right, Shammy.
We have the best trained Armed Forces in the world. They train, plan, and execute perfectly. There is no room for any deviation, or change because there is no error, because they do everything perfectly.

I'm not so much saying your wrong, or even that I am right.
I'm just saying you're sucking so hard on your own poll you can't tolerate any question to your authority.

They just killed civilians, and the people who tried to aid them. Were they innocent? Should they have been there? I don't know, but I think we should spend the time to ask, "what could have prevented this?"
BTW why are we still in Iraq/Afghanistan? Does the Armed forces just like it there? I ask because it is kinda getting expensive, and the estimate was 6 days to 6 months.

[^UG^ Shaman]

The tiny little (sweakbrain) amount of self control I have is fading quickly so I'll disengage from this conversation and be atpeace knowing that, if it were not for stupid people, we wouldn't know if there were any smart people. Thank you for helping to provide the scale at which we gauge human intelligence.

[Sweak2000]

Originally Posted by Shaman Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register to forum by clicking here to see images.

The tiny little (sweakbrain) amount of self control I have is fading quickly so I'll disengage from this conversation and be atpeace knowing that, if it were not for stupid people, we wouldn't know if there were any smart people. Thank you for helping to provide the scale at which we gauge human intelligence.

Your right to retreat.
God forbid someone ask you a question, that you don't want to answer.

[^UG^ Shaman]

Yes... I have no answers.... I just like slaughtering civilians... you win... night night.

[★☆ neck535]

Originally Posted by Sweak2000 Guests cannot see images in the messages. Please register to forum by clicking here to see images.

People see what they want to see, it is a problem of perception.
Perhaps, we should take a hard look at the way we train our forces. Is the training we provide to our forces realistic enough, and appropriate for the mission we them send to do?
Is this just a freak accident? or should we adapt our training methods to overcome this problem?
Having the flexibility to improvise is great, it just has it's limitations.

I will start by saying that I have actually driven down that street. Take that for what it is worth to you.

As well, I can tell you first hand some of the tactics used by the insurgency that you are overlooking... and not because you are choosing to, you just simply would not know these things. First, they dress like everyone else - you knew that. Second, they use civilian vehicles to evacuate the wounded and reinforce their fighters; they are highly organized at this. Unlike the military, which must wear uniforms, insignia, and drive in unique vehicles, they have the best camouflage in the world.... they look like everyone else. That van was in on the ambush that was about to happen.... there is no other reason why two men, military age, would be near a sight of a recent gunfight ready to assist with the perfect medical evacuation vehicle. Vans are not that common, especially not vans with blacked/tinted windows. It is true that people have AK47's in their house for protection.... they dont have RPG's, and definitely dont walk down the street with them.

I also have excessive amounts of training in looking thru FLIR and Thermal optics. So I see weapons that you may not.... Ill show them to you.

Alright, lets go with the facts that Wiki-leaks is ignoring, playing down, or failing to include in there 'breaking' video.

From the New York Times:

“There had been reports of clashes between U.S. forces and insurgents in the area but there was no fighting on the streets in which Namir was moving about with a group of men,” Reuters wrote in 2008. “It is believed two or three of these men may have been carrying weapons, although witnesses said none were assuming a hostile posture at the time.”


The American military in Baghdad investigated the episode and concluded that the forces involved had no reason to know that there were Reuters employees in the group. No disciplinary action was taken.


Late Monday, the United States Central Command, which oversees the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, released the redacted report on the case, which provided some more detail.


The report showed pictures of what it said were machine guns and grenades found near the bodies of those killed. It also stated that the Reuters employees “made no effort to visibly display their status as press or media representatives and their familiar behavior with, and close proximity to, the armed insurgents and their furtive attempts to photograph the coalition ground forces made them appear as hostile combatants to the Apaches that engaged them.”

Even Reuters admits that their men were traveling with armed men.
The wiki-leaks report states that a patrol from 1/8 CAV had small arms fire hit and run engagement in the area (hence the overhead helicopter cover). So a group of ARMED military age males gathering in the street within 8 minutes of an American Army patrol.... that equals a hostile target. No where in the ROE or the Geneva Conventions does it state you must be shot at first to engage the enemy... initiating contact is still a valid and legal tactic.



As well, it is a common tactic of the insurgency to have reinforcement and casualty evacuation in civilian vehicles, thus making the van a legit target, given the tactics of the enemy in that area.



Who takes their children near the site of a recent gunfight and expects that to be OK?


Pilots did everything correct, legally and militarily. Cameramen chose to be with armed men (just like reporters killed embedded with the US don't get this kind of send off, and they don't deserve an IED to the face), and the parents are to blame for the dead/wounded kids.


That is a group of insurgents, insurgent supporters, or people (reporters) choosing to associate with ARMED insurgents that were more than likely about to commit either a crime against Iraqis or an act of violence/war against US Army personnel.


So to answer your questions in short: No need to adjust training. Everything was done correctly, to include calling to the other chopper for verification (dual verification) and calling to higher headquarters for permission to engage in a heavily populated area. In the eye of the law, and my opinion, perfect shoot, and properly executed.



Here is some picture evidence, from the video, and things to back up my point, in video order:



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[GBentley]

Shaman, never back down. I realize you didn't. You simply claimed victory.

Neck, thanks for providing the input you did.

Sweak, you do just like Shaman said. You talk shit, spew numbers and stats, without any common sense or experience to back it up. Had you of taken the photos Neck did and pointed out cameras and cell phones showing proof that these guys were unarmed, or arrived in marked medical/safety/rescue vehicles, it might have been arguable. Do you realize that you are simply regurgitating war-time propaganda posed by someone with an agenda?

Do you even realize that members of academia are the most left-leaning, tree hugging, anti-war, socialist activist in our society? Half of them could not hold a job in the private sector where their bullshit won't pass and everyone is judged on performance.